Meet Mark Horn
Mark and I went discussed a very personal journey that he shares with such openness and honesty. I’m grateful to share it with you. I hope you not only enjoy it but that you find yourself ready to start your own personal spiritual journey with a little help from Mark.
BTW, one of my favorite parts of talking with Mark is that he has such joy in finding answers. To every question. It’s like a mini adventure each time.
More About Mark
The author of “Tarot and the Gates of Light: A Kabbalistic Path to Liberation,” Mark Horn was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. He started studying and reading tarot in 1968, when he was sixteen years old.
In 1970, he became an activist in the post-Stonewall LGBT movement as a member of the Gay Liberation Front, the Gay Activist Alliance and as the second chairperson of Gay & Lesbian Youth of New York. He is the editor/writer of the Stonewall Seder liturgy, a ritual dinner celebrating Jewish Queer Pride, which has been used and adapted by congregations around the United States, as well as in Europe and Australia.
A performing storyteller, Mark has taught traditional Jewish storytelling in the Prozdor program of the Jewish Theological Seminary for more than ten years. As a journalist, he has written feature stories for The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times and Metrosource magazine.
Mark has studied Kabbalah with academic, religious and practical teachers of Kabbalah in organizations ranging from the highly respected to the highly unorthodox, including Professor Elliot R. Wolfson at NYU, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi z’’l, at Elat Chayyim and with Jason Shulman in the Non-dual Kabbalistic Healing program of A Society of Souls.
He has studied tarot with many of today’s leading teachers, including Rachel Pollack, Mary K. Greer, Robert Place, Ruth and Wald Amberstone and Ferol Humphrey. He has led classes and workshops in Kabbalistic tarot at conferences and workshops in New York City.
He lives on the Upper West Side in New York City where he is available for private instruction and consultation and can be contacted through his website, www.GatesOfLightTarot.com
Find Mark Here:
Instagram | Facebook | Website
Our Conversation
Seth Vermilyea 0:09
Mark, thank you for spending some time with me on a Saturday. I am here in Chicago. It is a beautiful Saturday. So I am grateful for the time that you’re able to give us today. I’m hoping that you’ll take an opportunity to introduce yourself and share yourself with the listeners.
Mark Horn 0:38
Excellent. Well, thank you for having me. It’s just as a beautiful sunny day in New York here as well. introducing myself Well, the best thing to say is I’m an old veteran of the gang activist movement. You know, I actually started with the Gay Liberation Front in 1970. The people that started the pride parade in New York and I knew many veterans of Stonewall people who are actually there, I wasn’t there myself. And from the time that I came out as a as a gay man in 1969 1970, I had already been reading tarot cards for about three or four years. And, you know, I went into advertising as a career. And I’ve spent many years in advertising as a writer. It was one of the things that enabled me to go live in Japan for six or seven years, which has been a great influence in my life. And one of the things I guess I should say about myself is that the tradition of my of my birth, my faith tradition, I was born into Judaism. But I walked away from it at age 13 and came back in my 40s. And it was interesting Because you know I started with Tarot at around age 16 and I, you know, saw this Kabbalah stuff, but I paid no attention to it because I walked away from Judaism. And when I came back to Judaism more as a as a Buddhist mystic, and got seriously into Kabbalah, I realized, Oh, you can put all this stuff together with Tara, you didn’t do that all those years you ignored it. Now let’s see what’s going to happen. And it’s been a wild ride ever since.
Seth Vermilyea 2:31
Ever since, it sounds like it started as a wild ride.
Mark Horn 2:34
I actually, I’d say it was a wild ride. I mean, the truth is, you know, I mean, I was introduced to tarot cards by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I don’t know where the you’re familiar with her. She was the author of a book called the mists of Avalon. This sort of feminist retelling of the Arthurian story, and she had given me a tarot reading the day I went over there. her home to borrow with family tent to take up to the Woodstock Festival. And before I went up to the festival at age 16 she said to me, I think you need a tarot reading before you go, just to sort of do a little grounding for what you’re gonna what you’re gonna happen to you while you’re there. And she gave me this reading and she looked at me and she said, these cards suggest to me that you should be reading cards. And it’s true, I was really fascinated by the images so she gave me a list of books to buy and the exact tarot deck to get which I still haven’t used today. And, and from that point, I you know, so there I am from out of the gate, on my way to Woodstock. I’m in the world of Tarot.
Seth Vermilyea 3:49
This sounds like such a, somewhat of a mythical story and one that I want to believe so desperately and I do I mean, it’s a true. story. So I’m, it reminds me of a book that I read about actually Vietnam called The Things They Carried. Have you heard of this book?
Mark Horn 4:09
Yes, I’ve heard of it. Yes.
Seth Vermilyea 4:11
And one of the lines that the author shares is that, and this is a horrible paraphrase, but the more fantastical the story, the most unbelievable story is more than likely the one that’s true. And well, I don’t think you’re so like, so fantastical. Unbelievable. It sounds like something that I want a fiction writer to create. Hmm,
Mark Horn 4:32
I know, I understand. You know, there’s so many things happened in those days that I’ve, you know, I thought, this is good memoir stuff. And some of it, you know, shows up in my book, because my book is a workbook that takes people through a particular cabbalistic ritual that goes over the course of 49 days and it’s a practice of deep self reflection. So that in order to sort of demonstrate How to do it. I tell some of my stories. So some of these things actually come up in the book.
Seth Vermilyea 5:07
I’m fascinated by this as a divination tool and a self practice. So I’m gonna I’m gonna dig more into that in just a second. I’m gonna do a fun little lightning round with you. Absolutely. can lead us that way. Great. So what is your favorite divination tool?
Mark Horn 5:26
Oh, tarot. Absolutely.
Seth Vermilyea 5:28
And would you say you’re mentored or self taught?
Mark Horn 5:33
Hmm. self taught?
Seth Vermilyea 5:37
Do you prefer to read yourself or to get read?
Mark Horn 5:40
Ah, I prefer to read for myself.
Seth Vermilyea 5:44
And what’s your favorite tarot deck right now?
Mark Horn 5:47
Oh, well, you know, I live and breathe with the standard you know, Waite Smith deck and I continue to use for myself. The deck that I got in 1969 Which was called the university deck, it’s out of print, it was actually run out of print by us games, because they were out of copyright. They started printing before us game was copyrighted or got the copyright in the United States. And Marian said to me, You should get this deck because the colors are particularly vibrant. And it will be gone soon because this other company has the copyright now, and they’re suing to take it off the market. So you better get yourself a deck, which is what I do.
Seth Vermilyea 6:35
And what skills do you wish you used most often?
Mark Horn 6:40
Self editing. Who has had the biggest impact on who you are today? Oh, probably my mother. You know, unquestionably, she started reading to me from a very early age. So that at the age of five, I actually walked to the library myself and tried to get a library card, because she had been reading a book to me at night, every night before bedtime stories, and she was actually reading a novel. And she thought I wasn’t interested in it at some point. So she returned to the book, but I wanted to find out what happened. So I went to the library myself and tried to get a card. Of course, I couldn’t even write my name. So they weren’t going to do that. But, you know, my lifelong love of reading and study comes from my mother and I’m forever grateful for that.
Seth Vermilyea 7:36
I’m going to come back to that because I have several questions. And I love that that anecdote to some of the questions that I When did you When would you say you came out of the taro closet? It wasn’t at 13.
Mark Horn 7:50
Well, when you mean the Tarot closet you mean as a tarot reader, or as a queer man? Or is both
Seth Vermilyea 7:57
I shall not restrict you.
Mark Horn 7:59
Okay. Well, so, let’s say coming out of the Tarot closet started the day after my bar mitzvah at age 13, because I walked away from Judaism and I walked away from Judaism because at 13 I already knew I was gay. And I knew what organized religion had to say about that, whether it was Judaism, Christianity, or any any other religion that I was aware of at the time. And so at that young age, I started my search for alternative spiritualities different paths where I could really fully be who I was, and express my as yet unexperienced love for another man in a way that was both sexual and spiritual and where I would be welcomed by that faith community. And so I ended up doing all kinds of things I you know, I went down the path of the Guru Maharaj Ji cultists, and I, you know, read Baba ROM das is everybody in the latest 60s and early 70s did and eventually I found my way to an organization called the Society for creative anachronism, which through medieval tournament’s in complete costume, and that’s where I met Marion Zimmer Bradley since many of the members of this organization also science fiction and fantasy writers, and I was a science fiction fan major nerd territory here in a minor that years and and all of these people were involved in all kinds of odd spiritualities from what I’ll call promo 21st century Wicca to sort of the year as you can see with Marian who wrote a feminist retelling of the Arthur’s story, really feminist paganism, and that’s where I first encountered Tarot and as soon as I connected to Tarot, you know, everybody knew I was reading. I you know, within two weeks of having a deck and having a book, I was reading for everybody. I knew
Seth Vermilyea 9:59
Was it? Did you did you find your deck at one of these events? Or did you find it somewhere else? He’s such that she had suggested, find this deck find these books. Yes.
Mark Horn 10:11
So, you know, I had also been, as I said, I was a very nerdy kid, I was a follower of we could call it the UFO investigatory movement. In the late 60s. I actually posted the other day, a picture from a newspaper in 1967 of me giving a talk about UFOs at the local library at the age of 15. So, so I was already familiar with specialist bookstores in Manhattan, that carried books about paranormal psychic kinds of things. I had already tried astral projection, and I had been reading all these books about UFOs. And so I headed on down to the major Bookstore at the time. I’m wiser, which no longer is a bookstore in New York, but it’s still certainly a publisher. And they had the Tarot decks and they had books.
Seth Vermilyea 11:09
Did you happen to run into George Koury while you were there?
Mark Horn 11:13
Oh, no, I we didn’t really meet until just a couple of years ago. I’m really sorry. I’m really glad to have discovered this queer Tarot family. It’s, it’s very beautiful because, you know, it’s always been true in my life that whenever I’ve met a tarot reader in my circle, it’s almost invariably in a queer person of one variety or another. And so that to me to have, you know, this group that you have on Facebook, queer men and divination just really speaks to my heart and when I, you know, first came to the readers studio about, I guess, four or five years ago, and, you know, found all of these queer brothers and sisters. It was just Just it was mind blowing and very, very heart opening. It’s just a great experience.
Seth Vermilyea 12:05
I agree I and that’s part of why I started that Facebook group because I from my own point of view growing up on the west coast in Oregon in my high school, for example, I had 32 people in my class. So it was a very sheltered area. And I didn’t know how to find other people like me for all the things that might be meant. So that’s, I guess, the impetus to where those things started. Did you have similar experiences on this journey that has been your life trying to find the “like mes”?
Mark Horn 12:38
Oh, definitely, you know, unlike you, I mean, I grew up in New York City in a high school, where there were so many kids. We were on split session, so that, you know, the sophomores and the freshmen would go to school from 630 to about 130 and the The juniors and seniors would go from around 1130 to 530. Because this building couldn’t hold everyone, there were about three or 4000 people in my graduating class. And, you know, yes, that is kind of mind blowing. But despite all of that, you would think that I would have met a lot of people who I really connected with, but you know, my nickname in that period was Martian, because everybody kind of thought I was from another planet. And the the closest I came to meeting, sort of soulmates of one sort or another was by joining the what I’ll call the sports team of of gay boys everywhere, drama club.
Seth Vermilyea 13:51
What what was that experience like? And how did how does that impact you today being part of drama club and having all these nerdy experiences as you’ve been calling them?
Mark Horn 14:01
Well, I, you know, I think you know, because I grew up in many ways as a kind of an outsider. It gives me an appreciation for other outsiders who are looking in from whatever direction they’re coming from. And it helps give me I think, a perspective on what the inside is. That helps people on that side of the fence, see themselves, I think with a little more objectivity.
Seth Vermilyea 14:31
What role do you think, and I might keep coming back to this, what role do you think your mother played in fostering that kind of awareness or curiosity about what was in front of you and the people that you were meeting?
Mark Horn 14:47
Well, my mother was, she had a real love of learning. She I think she graduated high school but everyone in my mother’s generation in My family either only got through high school or were high school dropouts. So that and actually, some of my earliest memories of my father are him sort of leaning over my bed, almost as I’m learning how to speak. And he was saying to me every night as I’m falling asleep, you will go to college, go to college. It was like a hypnotic induction. But I grew up in a family with a love and a great desire of learning. And, and also I grew up with in a family where there were photographs on the wall of people who didn’t make it out of Europe. Now people who died in the camps, and so I had a very wide view of the world and of history, and also of my tenuous place in it. That, you know, I didn’t know how safe any place or any people were. So that it was always important to me to understand where I was and who I was surrounded by. Well, so you know, as a Jewish kid growing up in an Italian and Irish neighborhood, you know, I was regularly attacked. And also because I was this nerdy kid who was sort of stood outside and who was good at school where the values were not necessarily about being good in school, so that it was really important to me to be able to suss out any situation for safety. And that kind of gave me an antenna. And whether that activates anything that’s sort of psychic or whether that’s just sort of a, an A deep psychological listening, or a combination of the two. That growing up experience, I think gave me an ability to sort of read people and read the room.
Seth Vermilyea 16:56
Do you think that’s common among queer people?
Mark Horn 17:00
Oh, certainly, I think that queer people grow up with this psychic reaching out to find people who are similar. And, you know, I always used to believe that, you know, people always talk about gaydar. And and and I think that’s a true phenomenon because all people have a certain vibratory quality. And I think queer people vibrate at a different frequency, then I don’t want to say, straight people, I guess, you know, I don’t think anybody’s straight in the in any particular way. I think all of us have our twists and turns in our lives. But I think that queer people, you know, who express their love in different ways in ways that might not be welcomed in certain situations. Learn to recognize the vibratory frequencies of others, where they can feel safe.
Seth Vermilyea 18:02
So I was listening to this interview I had mentioned earlier about a podcast you were on, it just came out yesterday, this recording and you had mentioned I’m going to get this wrong, she might have to help me clarify exactly what I what you meant. you’d mentioned that part of the teaching of some of the, the kabbalistic teachings that are coming out of the research in the in your life in your story. But particularly in this book, that there’s an I’m going to use this word wrong. There’s a point to getting together on Fridays as a couple in order to share a communion through a sexual relationship.
Mark Horn 18:47
Very definitely. So in in Kabbalah, you know, one of the things that kabbalistic Judaism believes is that the divine is Unity is one it is beyond duality, but it is unity that includes duality. And because as human beings we are gendered and so we are in some ways split. It is it is important is almost a theoretic magical, right? Uh no kabbalistic Jew would actually say that but that’s really what it is that on Friday night as a way of reenacting and affecting what is above, we below must come together in intimate sexual Union as a way of reuniting the divine feminine and the Divine Masculine above. And so doing this with another is a way of opening to those energies within ourselves and helping those energies above relate to the each other in ways that we can now experience them as a union rather than as something so Little off.
Seth Vermilyea 20:01
I don’t think we often talk about sexuality in relationship to religion, or very often in relationship to Tarot. How do we see our sexuality in tools like Tarot and even in associated tarot with religion?
Mark Horn 20:21
Hmm. So well, you know, I mean, Tarot is inextricably bound up to religion in a way even though it’s not necessarily any particular one religion because I often refer to it as the warehouse of Western symbolism. Right, you know, you know, you go in, and there’s a grab bag of just about everything in there. But the interesting genius of it is, is that whoever put all of these things together, and if we’re talking about, you know, the rider Waite Smith deck, well, you know, it comes together from all This folks in the Golden Dawn and because Wade himself did not really direct Pamela Coleman Smith, with the minor arcana, it was very much her experience that affected all of those images. And, you know, there continues to be speculation about what her sexuality is. But she, you know, was a woman of the late 19th, early 20th century who grew up with this occult teachings which brought in all of these things together, and people say, Oh, well, in Golden Dawn, she never got past the rank of zealot, or she did not know all of these things. But when you look at the cards, it’s really clear. She knew a lot more than anybody around her knew that she knew. And and particularly with regards to Kabbalah, you know, I mean, I understand all of the meanings of the sefie wrote in very new wants to ways in ways that most books about Kabbalah do not teach. And it’s clear that you know, if you look at say, all of the befores in the suits, the four of wands, the four of swords, the four of pentacles, you know, the four of cups, that she understood both the positive and negative meanings of the corresponding Sephora in all of its nuance, because all of those images really managed to express that and that to me is amazing. So clearly, you know, the Tarot has picked up all of these meanings from all of all of these places. And of course, you know, you look at the four of swords For example, this is a card which picks up a European right from the Middle Ages in the Renaissance. That is the right of the chapel errorless You know, this Is what a Squire does the night the evening before, advancing to the to the rank of becoming a night. A one is supposed to spend the night in a church all night awake in meditation, sometimes actually on top of, or in a coffin, as a way of confronting one’s fear of death. This is a deep meditation. And it is so and it’s right there to see in the four of swords, but nobody actually refers to it, or at least, I’ve never seen it written about in any of the Tarot books that I’ve read. And this corresponds to any number of meditations in various other traditions. We’ll look at the it within Judaism, the holiday that we’re looking forward to it in the book, which happens when we look forward to from the very first day The four the four isn’t all the suits are the very first day that you start working. And the day that we’re looking forward to is the 49th day which you stay up all night in meditation, in preparation for your own revelation. So all of these things somehow come together, whether consciously put put there by the artist, or whether it was received wisdom. I don’t know how these things come together, but it’s clearly all there.
Seth Vermilyea 24:31
What do you think about as someone who is inspired to be scholarly from such a young age who has, I think, to me aspired to it as well as being inspired by it? What role does that have to play for Tarot readers? Is it important for us to be scholarly?
Mark Horn 24:54
Well, I have mixed feelings about that. I think that being scholarly can get in the way. You know there, there are people who will use book learning as a way of blocking their own connection to their own intuition. And as a defense against their own intuition. And there are people who can use scholarly learning as a way to open rooms within that were previously locked to them. And these are psychic realms, or realms of the intuition, realms of the Spirit, that through scholarship and learning, we learn about these realms, and then we explore them ourselves. So I say I’ve mixed feelings about it. I certainly have used scholarship in my own life as a defense. So I speak of this from my own experience, but I’ve also used it as a way to get past book learning as a way to sort blow my own mind and blow my own understanding of limited categories. So that helped me get past limited scholarship. But when you ask, Is it important for Tarot people? Well, you know, so I always roll my eyes. When I read a tarot book that starts saying that this is information that came from Atlanteans passed down to Egyptians that I’m sorry, if you cannot show me somewhere, evidence of this sort of thing. You know, I think you’re being entirely woowoo. And now, this doesn’t mean that there are there isn’t real channeled information out there. You know, I’ve seen people channel information that is clearly deep and coming from another realm, but there are people who just sort of model needlessly repeat. What I’ll say I don’t want to use the word old wives tale what a sexist phrase that is. You know, since certainly old wives have great wisdom, but what I’ll say is repeating old superstitions not based in any kind of fact that we can point to. And, and I think that’s dangerous. And I think that it’s an excuse for people who are lazy, who don’t really want to learn. Now, that said, you know, there are people who’ve never learned anything who pick up a deck of cards, and they are psychically attuned from right out of the gate, and they have all the information they need and they don’t need a book, more power to you. I my hat is off to you. I have never been able to do that. I it’s not my path. That doesn’t mean that when I’m sitting in front of a spread of cards that I don’t get intuitive flash. I certainly do. And I serve and you know, but they come through these intuitive flashes also are filtered through the knowledge that I’ve learned through scholarship, so that I’m able to interpret it in ways that I think, give depth and resonance to it, that I think can be helpful for people. And sometimes I just have to blurt what I’m getting, because any filter would get in the way. And it’s important for me to be able to determine when the scholarship can give extra meaning to what I’m about to say. And when it can become a filter that gets in the way. This is the point of the sword that I dance on.
Seth Vermilyea 28:52
How do you do that?
Mark Horn 28:55
Ha. It’s, it isn’t in the moment thing. It is, I think, a function of who I’m sitting in front of. And what I am able to ascertain is their ability to take in certain kinds of information based on who they are, you know, whether they are looking for that intuitive flash without any kind of scholarly interpretation or whether they are really interested in a kind of a reading that will tell them not only information that is sort of intuitive, but historical, so that they understand the information is coming through as connected to whatever their tradition might be. And that might be you know, because readings are often interactive. So that I’ll say, Well, you know, this is what this symbol feels like to me. But what does this symbol mean to you in your tradition or in your life, and then hearing from them, what they may see in it will give me a grounding for whatever information is coming through intuitively, that will enable me to sort of angle it in a way that we’ll be able for them is something that they’re able to receive in a way that is within their own framework.
Seth Vermilyea 30:27
So I’m, I’m curious. So I’m going to build on that a little bit. The experience of, and I want to relate this to your to your book, the experience of reading for someone and bringing together or amalgamating a lifetime of experience, to then take all of that and put it into a set of structure that is chapters and words and nuance. What does it mean to then hone in on a particular style or practice? And, and not, this may be the wrong phrase, seemingly not allowing all the other ones. So to take a book and have a theme you’re saying here is a way in which you can approach Tarot and not only Tarot, but your own meditation, your life your dreams. Does that exclude all others?
Mark Horn 31:40
Uh, I don’t think so. I mean, certainly in my book while it comes out of a kabbalistic tradition and I think it is. And one of the things that I think was really important for me to do was restore Judaism to Kabbalah within Tarot, because most Kabbalah within intact Arrow comes out of the hermetic tradition. And the hermetic tradition really has stripped the Judaism from Kabbalah. And that’s like cutting a plant and putting it in a vase. And I, you know, it may put down or may grow some roots there, but it’s a transplant. And I think that connecting the tradition to its roots gives you something stronger and deeper. That doesn’t mean that this excludes, say, you know, Christianity I certainly bring a lot of Christianity and Christian texts from the, from the Christian Bible, in my book because the practice, which is a 49 practice, going to the holiday of Pentecost certainly connects to the Christian holiday of Pentecost. But Pentecost was originally a Jewish holiday and it was eventually adapted by Christians and so that I would say that this practice is adaptable. within Christianity, and you know, because I spent many years in Buddhism, and and in deep Buddhist meditation, I also bring in Buddhist texts. And I also bring in Hindu texts and Sufi texts, and texts from even the Shinto tradition since I spent many years in Japan, so that the Japanese spiritual aesthetic, really is part of my life and comes out in the book as well. You know, I think that all humans are the sum total of all of our human, human and spiritual experiences. So I think all of that comes out in the book and it’s a and I bring it there because I want everyone to feel welcome. And to feel that their own spirituality is welcome and is adaptable into this tradition. No matter how they practice.
Seth Vermilyea 33:55
Do you think that writing this book is back to something you said earlier about safety is writing this book creating a safe space?
Mark Horn 34:06
Oh, well, so I have to say to you that one of the things so I have some endorsements blurbs from rabbis. And it was important to me to get blurbs from rabbis because, you know, Tarot is not exactly kosher. And so that using Tarot for this very traditional Jewish practice, but for many would seem really beyond the pale. But there are many rabbis today who sort of, you know, cross boundaries, and who recognize the value of these spiritualities. And one of the rabbis who read the book and who wrote me a very nice blurb said to me, are you sure you want to reveal all of the things that you’re writing about in this book, you’re really writing about some very personal things, and I just want to be certain that you feel safe doing so. And I have to say that at this particular time in history, really being very public, as a Jewish, queer man doesn’t necessarily feel safe. You know, that, you know, here, even here in New York, anti semitic attacks on the street have increased, you know, 100 fold. So and I have actually started wearing a kippah yarmulke in public, because not necessarily as a statement of spirituality, although it certainly is that, but it’s a statement of political solidarity, because, you know, I’m a gay man who can pass as straight, and I’m a Jewish man who can pass as Gentile. So that, you know, I can walk around in lots of places and pass and feel safe, but I think it’s more important to identified and as a way of creating safe space for others, but it means, you know, sometimes feeling unsafe myself. But it is important to have that courage. And I think, show other people that it’s important to, to use a phrase, a new age phrase that I’ve never liked, but I will use, I think it’s important to to source my own safety so that you know that I create a safe space around myself, that enables other people to feel safe themselves. And one of the principles that I write about in the book is during the week of hood, which is some it’s one of the Sephora and it can be translated as humility. And it’s the humility that creates a space for others to be fully themselves. without violating your own boundaries. And one of the other interpretations of hard is diversity. That is the splendor of the diversity of all creation, and, and all and a love for that diversity. So that one of the practices of this book is one of the practices of this path is to be able to open to all of that diversity and celebrated and to be fully who you are within that diversity and celebrate it. And so this is part of my spiritual path, but it sometimes means stepping out into a space where it feels, you know, is is this going to be welcome? I don’t know. But I welcome others and I feel it is important to be fully welcoming of myself wherever I am.
Seth Vermilyea 37:55
Did you take an opportunity to invite people to read the book early on who you might have expected a contrary view from?
Mark Horn 38:05
Yes. You know, I mean, I gave it to rabbis who I wasn’t certain whether they were going to be welcoming of this. And, you know, there was one rabbi who wrote me back, he said, this is a profoundly moving book, and I’m really thrilled that you wrote it. I cannot write you an endorsement and I won’t write about this book publicly, because it really is outside of what I would consider, you know, the Jewish norm. So, while I, my hat is off to you for doing this, this is not something that I’m going to promote. And and I am very impressed by your path. But this is not a path that I would recommend for other people who are within normative journey. deism so that, you know, I was happy that he recognized what I was doing. But, you know, and I, but I also understood his limitations, because he is a Rabbi of a normative community. And this would be outside, bounce.
Seth Vermilyea 39:23
How did that? How did that feel for you? Did it bring back 13 year old you?
Mark Horn 39:28
Well, it made me sad. It made me sad, because, you know, I felt that he, while I, you know, he understood his own limits in this situation. He was and also as the as the Rabbi of a community, he was setting a boundary for his community that I don’t know whether his whether or not his community would have been welcoming of or not. But he also was in the stricture because he’s as a rabbi, he was ordained by, you know, there are many denominations within Judaism. And, you know, he’s in the conservative tradition which is not conservative politically but conservative within the range of Jewish expression. And so for him, you know, he felt that the, the law committee that sets the rules for that denomination would have really looked askance at him sort of stepping into this world. So that, you know, it would have been, perhaps professionally unwise for him to say anything publicly about the book. Whereas, you know, just two weeks ago, I actually spoke at a congregation in New York City, where the rabbi was very enthusiastic and is a student of Tarot herself. So you can see that there’s a range within Judaism because sang Judaism is like saying Christianity. There’s lots of flavors, there’s lots of denominations, and so that it’s not monolithic. Even if we are monotheistic,
Seth Vermilyea 41:12
Do you feel like you have something to prove to the Jewish community?
Mark Horn 41:19
I don’t think I have something to prove to the Jewish community, but I think I have something to teach them. You know, I think that all of us work, one of the things about Judaism is that so the word Israel means one who wrestles with the divine. And I was studying with a Kabbalah teacher a couple of weeks ago, who was who had flown in from from the State of Israel. And she used the phrase Israel a lot in her teaching, and someone raised their hand and asked what She meant by that. And I was glad she used the definition that I use, which is really anyone who wrestles with the divine. Anyone who is willing to be vulnerable to the Divine Presence, and to let down one’s ego as a way of opening to whatever might come through. Because Kabbalah the word itself also means received or the verb is to receive. This is a received tradition. So and it was taught orally for centuries, it was never written down. There were many rabbis who said, You can’t write this down. You shouldn’t write this down. This is information that is secret and perhaps dangerous. So that it is a tradition that is goes from teacher to teacher, orally. And and and so for this particular teacher who was teaching it oral She does not write down her teachings. She said, it’s important that this is open to anyone that kabbalistic teaching nowadays, is no longer restricted to four classes was a woman. She said it’s no longer restricted to men. And you know, Kabbalah used to be taught only to Jewish men who were Torah observant, and who were married and over the age of 40. Now, what why is this you might ask? Well, just, you know, I don’t know what magical practices you might have been involved with. You know, I know that. When I was 16 years old, I tried astral projection. And I had some success with it, but I couldn’t really control it. And it felt scary and dangerous to me. So I decided I’m not going to do this. And there’s a great parable, a teaching from the Talmud, about four rabbis who were calling lists and who had done deep meditations together. And they, all of them reached a certain realm of what all the Buddhists say jonica awareness, the Calvinists would say they’d written reached one of the palaces of the heavens. This is inner experience or outer experience astral enlightenment. Well, it’s not quite enlightenment because only one of them got all the way it says, you know, four of these rabbis got to this level, and one of them went mad. One of them died, one of the became a heretic, and one entered and left in peace, and is known as one of the greatest teaching rabbis. The one who became a heretic is in some ways, the one who I identify with because when you reach these levels, you also realize that certain categories aren’t really you know, not real. You know that. In fact, you know, one of the things, one of the things that, that Rabbi Nachman, one of the great Hasidic rabbi said to one of his students, he said, the students had, why do you keep, still keep kosher? Keep some of these rules of Torah absorb, observe and Judaism, since clearly you have reached a level that seems to be beyond that. And he said, Well, it’s true that when you reach a certain level, certain practices are no longer necessary. But I still do them because they create a structure for people who are who are still on the path and they need a structure. Otherwise they could fall off the way and not have a strong enough container to be able to hold this energy. When you have created a strong enough container that you can have that you can hold this much light. Some of these practices are no longer necessary. So that and and as I say, you know, the one of the reasons there were all these restrictions, you know, we brought up these sexual practices earlier. So, one of the reasons that the rabbi’s felt that it was important for you to be married, if you were studying Kabbalah is that it unleashes a great deal of sexual energy, and that you need a place for this sexual energy to go. That is to use a phrase from the Buddhists is skillful, that doesn’t take you down a wrong path but takes you down a path of greater spiritual intimacy with another human so you can experience greater divine spiritual intimacy. And so, for the rabbi’s. It was very important that there be very strong boundaries around sexual expression, so that that expression would further spiritual connection rather than taking You’re away from it. And while I don’t hold with obviously, being a heterosexual man in a monogamous relationship with a woman, as necessary to do that, I do recognize that there are ways in which sexual expression can in fact, take you away from spiritual intimacy. You know, I certainly, you know, understand sexual compulsion as a defense, in fact, from spiritual connection, and this is something that I write about in the book.
Seth Vermilyea 47:36
I have so much reading to do. As I, so I’ve only just begun your book and I, I am constantly as we’re talking, fascinated by the depths to which one can go if they if they explore what the opportunities you put in front of us in this book, and I’m wondering, what do you think? What do you think is? Or, how do I want to say this? How is this book connecting you to future generations?
Mark Horn 48:16
Ah, oh, ah. Well, so I’ll tell you that, you know, obviously the book went on sale in January, and a number of people got it immediately. And rather than wait for the traditional omega accounting period, which would be starting this year, on April 9, they started the practice almost immediately, as soon as they got through the introduction. They started the practice with the cards. And when I was speaking at that synagogue a couple of weeks ago, there was one woman there who was about halfway through, and she was in her 30s and she shared with me her experience. I was really moved because I could see that she was getting a great deal of spiritual benefit and and experiencing a great deal of growth from this. And just earlier this week, I received an email from a woman in Vancouver, a millennial woman in her 20s, who, who finished the book had gotten today 50. And she said, Mind blown, this is really transformative. And I’m very grateful to you for writing this book. And for this practice. I going to recommend this to everyone I’m working with in the world of Tarot, and I can’t tell you how much that meant to me, because my impetus for writing this book was to share the benefits of this path. And to see that, you know, this woman from another generation and a completely vastly different experience from mine, got the benefit of all of this was very gratifying and very moving. And in fact, I, you know, I would say that in some ways I’ve come to feel that this book is is is my legacy. That is, you know, I’m hoping that future generations, should there be any will get the value of this book.
Seth Vermilyea 50:19
I think that I feel like I have great faith in that because I think of the queer community that as I see myself a part of it, there’s so much that we don’t get to express to other people because of issues like safety or not knowing someone who would understand or validate our experience. And I do wonder how this will continue to shed light on and allow for our experience with the divine and I understand you’re using that very deliberately. And where that might take us as not only individuals but as a community. What do you think?
Mark Horn 51:09
Well, you know, as you point out that I’m using the word divine, deliberately instead of the word God, which is not a word that I particularly love, because you know people come to that word with all kinds of baggage. And, and I like to point out that in Judaism that there are many names for this divine consciousness as being you know, hammock home, which means the place Huracan mon which means the Compassionate One. Just the letters you’d hate both Hey, which are you know, are sometimes pronounced as the breath. It is an in breath in and out breath. And the last words of Psalm 150 is all All beings that breathe in, every breath is in praise of you. Every breath is praise. So that it’s an understanding that all beings that are alive are praising the divine every day with every breath. And I love this. I think I’ve sort of gotten away from your question. I’m not certain that I answered it. I kind of went off on a tangent there. So I’m not certain what the question was, would you repeat it?
Seth Vermilyea 52:28
I think it was actually wonderfully connected. But I’m gonna ask you to clarify a little bit more how, how is that caring? Or maybe not caring is the wrong word? How is it helping to transform the queer community to know that there is a connection to the divine in a way that we might want to reject because of past trauma or experience.
Mark Horn 52:53
Oh, lovely. So there’s this wonderful card, the five of pentacles In the Waite Smith deck, which shows the the beggar in the leper outside the church, and I look at this card as spiritual exile, and often spirit self spiritual exile. One of the questions that I asked when we this card comes up is in what way? Do we feel that we are unwelcome before the divine? What parts of ourselves if we were standing before, whatever divine being we believe in? What part of ourselves Do we believe that we have to leave out in order to be fully acceptable to the divine? And the truth is, there isn’t any part of ourselves that is unacceptable to the divine, but this is an illusion. And the part of the message of the four of us sorry, the five of pentacles is too Step out of spiritual estrangement, and to know that while there may be an established church that keeps you on the outside, you are never on the outside.
Seth Vermilyea 54:17
Giving that some air for a minute or maybe a breath. I think that’s a beautiful way to think about that. So thank you. Can you describe why it might be important to come out of the taro closet, especially for an up and coming young queer tarot reader?
Mark Horn 54:44
Well, so I’ll go to another card, which connects back to the card and we’re just speaking of this is the nine of wands. And, you know, I was doing the reading for somebody about a year and a half ago, a young man who I did not know And I wasn’t getting any gaydar vibrations from him. But as I was doing the reading, I was looking at this card in relationship to all the other cards in the reading. And I said to me if I ask you a personal question, in the context of a reading, I said, this is going to be really personal. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to see he said, he said, No, fine. You can ask me anything I said, Are you in the closet? And he burst out into tears. Because that was really what this entire reading was about. He was queer. And like the character like the figure in the nine of wands, he was hiding behind a wall of his own creation. He was afraid to come out from behind those imagined fears. And I think that this is something that queer people sometimes when we were talking about safety, sometimes we walk around the world with this spiritual wound, so that we’re always wary in every situation that we walk into. And one of the things I like to point out about the card is that if you look beyond the sort of open space of those wands standing and the earth, there’s actually no danger beyond there. This is he’s reacting to past wounding. But in fact, he’s free to step out beyond those those defenses. And, you know, one of the things I like to tell people is, your defenses sometimes create the unsafety that you are afraid of. So you have to look at that. And I think it’s really important for queer people to own their spirituality to own their connection to the divine. And to feel safe enough to share that expression with others. Because when you’re connected to the divine and you share that in a way that is not proselytizing, right? But in a way that is that creates an opening for other people. It allows them to have that connection with you, and with their own connection with the divine. It’s about creating an open safe space. And if you are that space yourself, it allows other people to flower.
Seth Vermilyea 57:38
Do you feel like you’ve healed your spiritual wound?
Mark Horn 57:42
Not entirely. You know, I think that many of them, you know that. It’s an onion. You’re always peeling something back. You know, you always find something new. week or so ago, I was at a dinner at a synagogue With another rabbi who has read my book, and who won’t write about it, but this was a dinner honoring this rabbi. And he actually called me up to the front of the room, introduced me to the several hundred people at the dinner and said, I want to tell you about this guy’s book. And I was blown away. Because, you know, when I go to this particular synagogue, I feel like you know, I love this place, I get great deal of value and and a connection there. But there’s also because it is a little bit of a normative place. There’s a part of myself that I feel like, it’s not entirely welcome there. I’m fully who I am. But I feel like okay, you can’t really express everything to everybody here. And he gave me that permission. And I was surprised, you know, so that, as I was saying, you know, the guy in the 911 He walks around feeling like maybe he’s a little unsafe and maybe it’s not as unsafe as he thinks. Well, all of a sudden in this situation where I felt like I’m not entirely I can’t entirely come out as being a tarot person in this place. Well, he outed me to the entire room and, and spoke very I’d say copper in a very complimentary way about the information in the book. He discussed it as even though it’s Tarot. He said it’s profoundly Jewish. And that coming from him in that room, I was just really blown away.
Seth Vermilyea 59:37
How did it feel to hear him say that even though it’s Tarot is profoundly Jewish?
Mark Horn 59:43
Well, you know, because for him, you know, Tarot is not kosher. So for him, it you know, it’s not part of his spiritual language. So it’s for him, it’s not within Judaism. For me, it’s totally within Judaism. But Have him say that it just it was heart opening for me. Because it was saying to me in his way, he felt that this was completely welcome, even if it was not something that he was going to do himself, and he recognized the value of the path.
Seth Vermilyea 1:00:24
Wow, that’s that is that that’s a powerful moment.
Mark Horn 1:00:30
All right, if I’m eating an orange, I hope I’m not crunching in your ear.
Seth Vermilyea 1:00:34
No, not crunching at all. I if you can believe it, we’ve made it to near the end of our time. Wow. Very quickly. And so I’m going to I’m going to speed it up for a moment
Mark Horn 1:00:49
Before it before you do that one. There’s one thing I want to say because we’ve spent a lot of time on Kabbalah and a lot of time on Judaism. And we have talked about cards but and and this particular path. But one thing I want to say about it, because there are many people out there who aren’t Jews, and who may not want to walk this path that is in the book, this practice of counting the Omer by using cards. But I want to tell people is that even if you’re not going to practice this, counting the reading this book will change the way you read cards for the better. Just because every one of the cards that is written about in this book is written about from 13 different angles. You will see it in relationship to a number of other cards, you’ll always see any one card in relationship to many other cards and see how those relationships change and shade the meanings particularly or from a kabbalistic point of view. But by doing by reading this book, I think it will make anybody a better and a deeper tarot reader
Seth Vermilyea 1:01:57
Beautiful. I am Looking forward to digging into it as one of those books that ends up having pages that fall out. That’s how I anticipate experiencing this book. Because I, the more than I hear you talk about it, that the limited amount that I’ve read so far, it feels like one of those that I’m going to go back to them and a dog here, I’m going to know that I’m gonna. So I am looking forward to just what you described.
Mark Horn 1:02:28
I hope so and you know, people who do the practice it because it is an annual practice. And the way I’ve structured the book, you can actually use this book for five years in a row, almost kind of like making your own path. It’s interactive in that way. You know, I thoroughly hope and wish the people will go back to it again and again, as a workbook if not only as just a way of learning about the cards
Seth Vermilyea 1:02:55
you may have like a workbook companion
Mark Horn 1:03:00
I’ve thought about it. Um, you know, but I think really all anybody needs is a journal to work with by their side. Yeah, is I don’t think there’s any reason to put out a book which is mostly blank pages.
Seth Vermilyea 1:03:16
Okay, let’s jump into the Second lightening round. What’s your favorite tarot card?
Mark Horn 1:03:20
Oh, oh, the magician.
Seth Vermilyea 1:03:25
And who’s your significant right now?
Mark Horn 1:03:27
I don’t use a significator.
Seth Vermilyea 1:03:30
what tarot reader Are you obsessed with right now?
Mark Horn 1:03:34
Ooh, tarot reader. Hmm. Well, you know, so I’ve done a lot of work with Ferol Humphrey, who I really love. She is just such a joyous spirit and such a curious mind and someone who has access to realms that I do not have access to. So I think love working with her and studying with her.
Seth Vermilyea 1:04:02
And what would you revolutionize in Tarot next?
Mark Horn 1:04:09
Ha, well, so, like probably almost everyone who is listening to this podcast, I collect decks and I have a number of decks and one of the things that I am particularly interested in, obviously given my background is kabbalistic decks, and I have some that are really very purely kabbalistic from a Judaic point of view and some that are hermetic capitalistic, but I’m really interested in seeing some very different interpretations of Kabbalah in Tarot. Heather Mendell has a deck called the syzygy Oracle, which sort of goes in that direction it has a cabbalistic base, but uses go Odyssey is it’s a feminine, it’s a feminist, Carnival list deck. And when I say kabbalist, but it also uses, you know, Greek goddesses, which is pretty, not kosher, as you can say. But there it is, because she sees the connection. And I love to me that’s revolutionary. And I’m fascinated, by the way people are expanding the understanding of how Kabbalah can be expressed within the Tarot, and seeing the freedom that people are taking to do that. So I’m exploring all those byways and I’m always happy to see something new that comes out along those ways.
Seth Vermilyea 1:05:38
Well, I think that’s wonderful. Well, Mark, I want to thank you for spending a little more than an hour with me today. This has been a joy, we could probably talk for another two to three hours. The amount of information that I want to suck out of your brain is ridiculous. And I also have any more questions just about your journey. So we may have to do this again. And I have to lay person at some point where we can also have a conversation.
Mark Horn 1:06:08
Excellent. For people who are interested, my website is gatesoflighttarot.com. And there you’ll find a link to the book and where you find my blog. So where I read about particular cards from this point of view.
Seth Vermilyea 1:06:25
Thank you so much. I’m, I’m so glad that we spent some time together today. Thank you.
Mark Horn 1:06:29
Thank you for this opportunity. It’s been a joy and I look forward to seeing you at reader studio in a couple of months assuming that the Coronavirus doesn’t stop us all from going.
Seth Vermilyea 1:06:38
Yes, yes.